TRANSCRIPTION OF RADIO INTERVIEW ON KSRO 1350 AM, SANTA ROSA, CALIFORNIA THE ALAN STOCK SHOW March 26, 1996 Alan Stock: From Marinsville to politically confused Rohnert Park, and from the Russian River out to the Napa vineyards. a good morning. I am Alan Stock, KSRO and it is 9:07. Good to have you aboard this morning on this election day. If you haven't voted today yet, I encourage you to do so before the polls close tonight, otherwise, you want to complain and moan about what's going, you can only do it if you participate in the system, at least we won't take you seriously if you don't vote. Let's go ahead and welcome this morning some folks that I am very happy to have aboard. We are coming to you live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. You can stop on down and catch the show live at 7950 Redwood Drive in Cotati and it is my pleasure to welcome aboard two gentleman who are quite passionate about the various issues connected with fire arms and concealed weapons permits. Clayton Cramer, author of For the Defense of Themselves and the State; The Original Intent and Judicial Interpretation of the Right to Bear Arms and Firing Back: Defending Your Right to Keep and Bear Arms. He also wrote a piece for the Tennessee Law Review called "Shall Issue: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws." Also, this morning, Patrick Rooney, Police Chief and Public Safety Officer for the City of Santa Rosa and president of the Sonoma Police Chief's Association. (Pause) You're what? In the background, "Rohnert Park" AS: What did I say? Unidentified: Santa Rosa. AS: Well it is Rohnert Park, although we are broadcasting all over the place and I even have Rohnert Park right here, I just can't read my own typing. California legislators are now contemplating whether or not to liberalize the laws governing issuance of concealed weapons permits as has been done in various other states in the past 18 to 24 months. Current California legislation has passed the assembly and is currently being debated in the State Senate. Chief Patrick Rooney and Clayton Cramer, Good morning. Welcome to the Alan Stock Show on KSRO today broadcasting from The Montana Hawk Firing Range. Chief Patrick Rooney: Good morning, Alan. Clayton Cramer: Good morning. AS: Good to have you both aboard this morning. Let us get started right away. Clayton, the legislation currently pending in the State Senate says what? Who gets a permit to carry a concealed weapon if this legislation passes and is signed by the governor. CC: Essentially any law abiding citizen, that is someone with no criminal convictions, who hasn't been locked up against their will in a mental hospital and who meets some minimal training requirements; which I will agree are a little too minimal. Basically, the law would require that police chiefs would have to issue a concealed weapon permit to that person unless they could find some substantial evidence that the person was in some other way a threat to public safety. AS: And that way would be what? CC: There is a provision that if a police officer is prepared to make a sworn written statement to the effect that this person has demonstrated some reason to fear that they are a threat to public safety that that would be a valid reason for denying a permit. AS: If they have a felony record? CC: If they have a felony record, they are absolutely prohibited from receiving a permit. AS: If they are a known drug dealer? CC: There are provisions which say if they are a member of a criminal street gang, they are not allowed to obtain a permit. If the police department can demonstrate that even if this person has not been convicted, that they have good reason to believe this person is a hazard to others, then they have a valid basis to deny a permit. AS: And what if there are mental problems involved. CC: There are provisions that if a person has been locked up against their will in a mental hospital, much like the provision that prohibits such a person from buying a hand gun, then they are not to obtain a permit. AS: You said there were some provisions in there also that mandated some type of training, it was minimal but not enough was what you said. What is that training? CC: Well, there is basically a list of courses that would qualify as adequate training. The Hunter education and Hunter safety course. Completion of firearms safety or training course through a law enforcement agency, community college, the firearms safety and training course that is available to security guards. There are a few other provisions here that would qualify as adequate training and there is a provision that if a person is currently or has previously been licensed to carry a concealed weapon in this state, that they are considered to be OK as well. I will, it is hard to argue against a more stringent training requirement except that a lot of other states that have adopted these laws have not adopted a more stringent training requirement and seem to have no serious problem because of it. AS: Chief Patrick Rooney, I thank you for being with me this morning. You're hearing what Clayton Cramer is saying about the current legislation pending before the California State Senate, has passed the California Assembly and waits for the State Senate action. We are talking about the possibility of having this implemented and speaking to the fact that certain people could not gain these permits because of mental problems, because of past legal history, because of current possible drug dealing activity and also some type of training is directed in this particular piece of legislation. What objection could you have to this? Chief Patrick Rooney: Well, first of all, Alan, this morning I am representing the Sonoma County Law Enforcement Chiefs Association, as well as the California Chiefs Association in opposing this particular bill. This bill virtually eliminates the discretion of local law enforcement officials to deny concealed weapons permits. It would in fact require police to grant concealed weapons permits to individuals with long criminal records and this is where I disagree with Mr. Cramer. In persons with serious substance abuse problems. AS: Let me ask you to get closer to the microphone. CPR: And persons with serious substance abuse violations in the past. It repeals a current California law which permits cities and counties to place reasonable restrictions or conditions on concealed weapons. For example, if this bill were to pass, we could not restrict carry weapons concealed in elementary schools, day care centers, clubs, restaurants, sporting events, places of worship, stores, movie theaters, so on and so forth. There are some other serious issues with this bill, for instance, the training that Mr. Cramer is talking about, if you read through this bill, in theory you could get a certification through a correspondence course based on a DD214 form from the military which says that you have actually qualified let's say four or five years ago in the military on a sanctioned range. There is just a lot of considerations to this bill that I don't think have been well thought out of, well thought out, and we are very concerned in our community with the potential of this bill passing. AS: I have talked to a variety of people who do support the idea of concealed weapons permits who do agree that we do need a different provision in there to be able to mandate more training. There again, people who support the idea, as you do not, police Rooney - ah, Chief Rooney, that they should go ahead and be able to carry them. But they should mandate heavier training. CC: Let me make a comment, Sonoma County imposes a requirement for obtaining a concealed weapon permit just here in this county which is more stringent and it is a course that is very hard to argue against. I have been through it, my wife has been through it. It has been a very effective method of teaching what the law on use of deadly weapons is and also has a training provision where you actually go out and demonstrate competence on the range. It is hard to argue against that. One of the reasons that most of these laws do have fairly limited training requirements is that training requirements have historically been used in many states as a method of making it effectively impossible to obtain a permit. I can understand the desire for an enhanced training requirement. The major issue, though, the major issue on which a lot of people are quite insistent this law needs to be passed in some form is the taking away of the unlimited discretion that police chiefs and sheriffs currently have. Right now, the problem about unlimited discretion, there are examples that have happened in this county of the abuse of this. The person that was sheriff here a few years ago, Michaelsen, there were people here who were issued permits who by an reasonable definition should not have qualified. I know that there was at least one case where a person was issued a permit before a background check was completed that showed the guy had a felony conviction. AS: You know I am interested also, because we are going to take a break in a minute and we're going to come on back and I want to address the differences the two of you spoke to a moment ago regarding this law. Clayton spoke to the idea that this law would in fact not permit someone to carry a gun if they were a drug dealer or if they were a convicted felon. CPR: That's not true, Alan. AS: And you're saying that is not true. I want to come on back and I want to talk about that in a moment because that is some of the major differences in this particular legislation and I also want to talk about the possibility of amending the current legislation pending in the State Senate so we can look forward to the possibility of this coming up where we can both and all support this. I've got lines open this morning at 270-1350, and I've got a line open at 1-800-570 TALK, that's toll free, 1-800-570-8255. The fax in 707; well we're not going to even use the fax this morning so let's just go with the phone numbers. We'll be back live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati talking about concealed weapons permits in just a minute. I'm Alan Stock. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 9:19. I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you, coming to you live this morning from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. We're at 7950 Redwood Highway. You can stop on down and watch the show live and I'm talking this morning with two folks who are passionate regarding concealed weapons. Clayton Cramer is an author. Patrick Rooney, the Police Chief of Rohnert Park. Coming to you right next door from Rohnert Park as a matter of fact. Good to have you both aboard this morning. Got a line open by the way, at 270-1350 and one at 800-570-TALK in case you'd like to join on in and would love to hear what your thoughts are this morning regarding the issue of concealed weapons permits. A lot of people support it and many, many people oppose it as well. Want to hear what you have to say this morning. We were talking just before the break about some of the restrictions that were brought up in this particular legislation and one of the restrictions is that we have is that a license shall not be issued to an applicant about whom the law enforcement authority has prepared a sworn written statement alleging that the applicant is likely to use a weapon unlawfully or negligently so as to endanger others. Chief Rooney, wouldn't that be sufficient to make sure if a police officer swears to that that an individual in question could be restricted from obtaining this permit. CPR: No, because there is a process that is very confusing with this bill. For instance, I can go ahead and file this sworn statement and that sworn statement is going to have to be based on a background. It is going to require someone going out into the community or checking for mental illness, a past history of that, as well as a more in depth history check than just the Department of Justice. AS: Isn't there a state wide system that allows for an automatic check by law enforcement authorities to find out if someone has had a history of, not only mental problems, but lock-ups as well? CPR: There is, but it is not something you can go to every day. For instance, if I'm looking at someone who has been confined let's say, in Camarillo State Hospital, I may not have access to the fact that they spent a year there and now they have moved to this county. I am not going to have access to the treatment necessarily that they had related to their propensity towards violence with respect to others. AS: Why wouldn't you have access to it? CPR: Because there are laws that govern that. AS: You're talking about privacy laws? CPR: Yes. AS: Could these not be amended to allow law enforcement authorities to make sure that they are aware of this if one seeks to secure a concealed weapons permit. CPR: But even then Alan, it wouldn't help and here's why. AB638 only prohibits the issuance of concealed firearm permits by reason of mental instability to a small class of persons who have been formally found by a court, now we're talking a judge or a civil or criminal legal proceeding which identifies this person as a danger to themselves or others. You're talking about a small minority of people who have actually been treated for mental disorders that fall into this classification. AS: Clayton Cramer. CC: However, if you have a long history of a person, while not convicted of any crimes, has a long history of arrests for injuring other people, attacking other people, demonstrating that they are a hazard to others, there is a provision here that says all you have to do is prepare a written statement showing why this person is a hazard to others and they would not be eligible for this permit. CPR: Clayton, I appreciate that. The issue though is, is that most law enforcement agencies, and this is another weakness of this bill, they require that within 15 days of receiving a records check with the Department of Justice, within 15 days the police chief must consider issuing this permit. Now look at the burden this is going to place on law enforcement agencies. We're not going to start doing a background until we get the Department of Justice files back, we're just not going to do it. That gives us 15 days and the law doesn't tell us if it is 15 working days to now go out and do this type of background that Mr. Cramer is suggesting and quite honestly we don't have the personnel to do that. CC: A number of other states when they have adopted similar laws have often had longer periods. Typically 30 days, 45 days, sometimes 60 days. The major reason for having a time limit is to make sure that it does not become something where the department just keeps putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. There is nothing about 15 days which is not written in stone. If it has to be longer in order to make that possible, that's fine. AS: Is it stipulated as such? CC: It is stipulated as 15 days in the law but there is no reason that can't be amended to be somewhat longer if that's actually necessary. I know that in Washington State, for example, some agencies there have a very hard time getting in within the 30 day maximum specified by their law. There are other agencies who seem to have no problem at all. I should point out however, that relative to the number of permits likely to be applied for is not going to be enormous. It will be larger than what we have now. The highest rate of issuance of any state so far is Idaho where 4% of the population has applied for and received a permit. More typically it's between one-half of one percent to about three percent. AS: Chief Rooney would you..... CPR: Alan, let me respond to that if I could. Let's take some of the states that Mr. Cramer is talking about. In 1987 Florida went to a fairly liberal concealed weapons law. OK, in 1994 and every year since 1987 Florida has had the highest rate of violent crime in the nation. They have had over a 26% increase in homicides related to firearms. Now, Mr. Cramer is talking about small numbers. Let's take a look at Florida and Mr. Cramer looked at Florida in his own study. Florida went from about 14,000 concealed weapons permits in 1987 up to about 60 to 70 thousand, an increase of over 700%. Now, let's take California. Florida only has 14 million people and it has the highest crime rate in the nation right now. So this hasn't help reduce crime at all. AS: Clayton Cramer. CC: For starters, Florida changed its method of reporting all the other major felonies in 1988. If you take a look at the Uniform Crime Report for 1988, it makes the point of the fact that the data for the other violent crimes is not comparable to previous years. Gary Kleck's book, Point Blank, also makes that same point that they changed their method of reporting other felonies. Another thing, gun homicides. Most people assume that means murders. In fact, this is not an accurate statement. What happened is murder has fallen quite dramatically, over 20% fall since 1987. What it is is that there is a study that has been done by the University of Maryland that looks at the National Center For Health Statistics numbers for "gun homicides." What are gun homicides? That includes all killings of one person by another with a gun, that includes justifiable homicides by cops, that includes justifiable homicides by civilians. It includes a lot more than murders. This is a very fundamental difference to remember. The other thing is, we're also talking about the difference between gun killings and total murders. We should be looking also what happens to the total murder rate, not just the ones involving guns and that has fallen dramatically. AS: Chief Rooney. CPR: Let me get back, Alan, to the numbers we're talking about and put this in perspective. We have about 33 million people in the state of California. The highest population of any state. If you were to take the percentage of say, let's take Florida because that's the model Mr. Cramer uses. We will be anywhere from 1 million to 1.5 million additional people wearing either concealed weapons or exposed loaded firearms because another thing this bill does is it allows in counties with less than 200,000 people a permit which allows people to wear a loaded but exposed fire arm. For instance, Napa. CC: That's current law, by the way. AS: OK, let me ask you a question. The current legislation that is pending it does speak to the issue, Chief Rooney, does it not, that if someone has been convicted of felonies though you can withhold the permit. Is that correct. CPR: Convicted of felonies, you can hold the permit. CC: Must withhold, in fact. AS: OK, so in other words that is an apparent situation for police chiefs and law enforcement officials. CPR: But, Alan, let's put that in perspective. In theory, we can have a person who gets involved in a traffic collision, is under the influence of drugs or alcohol and under this provision I've got 15 days after DOJ (Department of Justice) comes back because there has been no conviction. I've got 15 days to go into a lengthy bureaucratic process of trying to deny this permit. AS: I understand that, but we're also talking about someone, and you're talking about a small slice and I'm talking about someone who has been convicted of felonies prior. You would have that access and information to deny the permit. You know, we're going to be taking a break for CNN Headline News and the lines are beginning to light up here and I want to get to Ron and Jerry and some of the other folks who are holding right now. But, I also want to talk about when we come on back why it is that citizens even want to have or feel the need to have concealed weapons when so many people are running around our society today with concealed weapons. People who are doing it illegally. People who are bad guys and some of us do feel threatened on the streets of California. I'm Alan Stock and we'll be back from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati with Chief Pat Rooney from Rohnert Park and author Clayton Cramer right after CNN Headline News. I'm Alan Stock. This is 1350 KSRO Santa Rosa. It's coming up to 9:30. AS: KSRO Talk Radio time 9:33. I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. Good to have you aboard this morning and I thank you for joining me as we discuss concealed weapons and the process that's going on right now in Sacramento. The Assembly has passed the concealed weapons law and it is now languishing in the State Senate. They are debating it but I don't think as conscientiously as they might. Clayton Cramer is with me. He is an author who supports the idea of allowing individual citizens to carry around concealed weapons if they are not convicted criminals or people who have a mental history record. Patrick Rooney is the police chief of Rohnert Park and he opposes this particular piece of legislation. And, gentleman, I thank you both for joining me this morning. We are coming to coming to you live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. 7950 Redwood Drive. We are right off of Highway 116 so you can find us very easily, come on down and say hello. We'll get to your calls in just one minute. I wanted to get back to one point that I've heard over and over again, Chief Rooney, that is the reason that people have a desire to carry a concealed weapons permits or concealed weapon and a get a legal permit for it. We have lots of people right now as we're talking carrying concealed weapons around this state of California who do not have permits. Many of them are the bad guys, many of them are the criminals, many of them are the bank robbers. The store robbers and the killers and those who prey on older people. There are a lot of us out there that say, "You know what, we don't have an opportunity to adequately protect our- selves. You cannot call a police officer, no matter how good the intention of the police officer, you cannot call a police officer in a moment of emergency. Often times it has been the case and my personal experience that when police officers are called for emergencies they never even show up nor bother to even call back. And I have come to believe over a period of years of personal experiences that people need to own firearms to protect themselves and very well might also carry around weapons to defend themselves in public when they don't have the opportunity to get a hold of you folks. What do you say to someone that is concerned about wanting to be able to protect themselves and not having that opportunity to do so and only that concealed weapon might lend to their sense of security and save their lives? CPR: Well, when I certainly, I listen to people on a daily basis and there are certainly a significant number of people who would take that approach. What I might point out though, is that for the last several years because some of the bills that have been passed especially at the federal level, actually crimes associated with weapons, murders involving firearms have actually gone down in most states nation wide. I understand the concern, but you know, I also hear from a broad spectrum of people who are concerned about the proliferation of weapons and the availability and, for instance, in 1994 the Times Mirror Center polling did a poll and found that 71% of Americans believe that stricter controls of handguns should be a top priority for this nation. In California..... AS: Is that your position, Chief? CPR: What's that, Alan. AS: Do you agree with the people who have polled that we ought to have stricter controls of handguns by law abiding citizens. CPR: I think at this point in time in the state of California I think our current law is very, very adequate. I think law enforcement is comfortable with it and I think overall the community is comfortable with it. AS: You spoke to the fact that we have had a decrease in the number of violent crimes by handguns over the past few years due to some federal legislation, I would only say this to you in all earnest sincerity and that is, that is good for those people who are still alive. For those people that the minority or wherever, being attacked by someone else having a gun those statistics would not be satisfactory. They wouldn't satisfy someone who is being attacked by a bad guy with a gun if they were naked without a weapon to defend themselves, they would be up a creek without a paddle and I'm not sure what they would do except lie down and go on to the next great beyond. CC: I think it's also important to understand no one is proposing that we abolish the existing laws on who can purchase a handgun. This does not change that. Right now, we have a situation where an awful lot of the people who are carrying guns in this state right now illegally, are people that really there doesn't seem to be anyway to disarm them. They are a serious problem. They are a serious threat to a lot of other people. The only people that are being effectively disarmed by the concealed weapons law we have now, are the people that we have the least to worry about. AS: Pat Rooney, please speak to that particular point. That is a very important point and that's what I was bringing up a moment ago. We have so many people in this state that have the guns. We cannot get them out of their hands. They are the bad guys. They are not coming to you and saying, "Chief, can we get a permit." These are the bad guys. And yet, it's the good guys who want to have the permit to defend themselves and we're saying to the good folks, no we've got to tie your hands behind your back because we want this to be a peaceful society and we're in effect putting these people against the wall in some areas and allowing them to be summarily executed by the bad guys with the guns. That's how some of us are seeing it. CPR: And I understand that Alan. You know, we're making the inroads we have. You know, but you can't in my mind if you take the position that more guns equal safety, history has shown that's not the case. AS: No, I wasn't say that, I was suggesting that an individual possessing a weapon having been trained in it and obviously this legislation needs to have some amendment to allow for more training, I couldn't agree with you more on that. But for an individual to have that weapon to defend themselves in the event of being attacked might save their lives or the lives of their family. CPR: Let me be clear, myself and the Chief's Association are not out to restrict any further the purchase of handguns, the ownership of handguns, or the ability for people to protect themselves like they present can in their homes, in their businesses. CC: Just not anywhere else. CPR: Pardon. CC: Just not anywhere else. CPR: I think it's important to also note that police officers who carry guns go through continuous training on a yearly basis. They work around other methods of countering, of using deadly force and constantly we're looking at ways to not use deadly force. But even with all of our training, a high percentage of police officers are actually killed with their own guns, Alan. The guns are taken away from them. CC: That is somewhat because most police officers are carrying a gun openly. They have to also get into situations that a civilian would not have to. A civilian is not going to get himself involved in a lot of situations that a police officer because it is his job must get involved with. This is a fundamental difference and I think it is the reason that police chiefs have generally opposed these measures at first, although in other states they have generally calmed down afterwards, is that they are confusing that there is a difference between a civilian who is carrying a concealed weapon for self defense and a police officer. A police officer by the nature of his job has to do things that the rest of us would look at and say, "OK, I'm going to back away from this because I don't want to get into a confrontation." CPR: Well, Alan, but if you look at the statistics of the states that have liberalized concealed weapons, those people who go to use their guns for self defense there is a high percentage of those people who are killed with their own guns. CC: Can you give me some data on that because the National Crime Survey shows that typically about 1% of gun defenses result in the defender losing their gun. AS: We'll give you a chance to get that data to us just the other side of these important words. When we come on back, we'll get that data and then be heading on over to Sebastopol to Ron and Eric. If you'd like to join on in, I've got a line for you. 570-1350 and 1-800-570-TALK, that's toll free 1-800-570-82155 broadcasting this morning live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. I'm Alan Stock. AS: KSRO Talk Radio time 9:45. Coming to you live this morning from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. 7950 Redwood Drive. Come on down and say hello and you can watch the show live in action here this morning. My guests, Clayton Cramer, author and Patrick Rooney, the Police Chief of Rohnert Park and they are talking about concealed weapons. When we last left, we had a challenge for a statistic. Clayton, reiterate that statistic. CC: He was asserting that lots of people... AS: The police Chief... CC: Yeah, that lots of people who have concealed weapon permits have the gun taken away from them and used against them by the criminal. My argument is that I would like to see some data on that because all the data that I have seen suggests that the guns being taken away from civilians is not so common. Police officers are at a significant disadvantage. AS: Police Chief Rooney, a response to that. CPR: You know, my statistics is what is happening in law enforcement and what I was trying to do is relate that even trained police officers who are trained in weapons retention, so on and so forth, there is still a high percentage of those people of law enforcement officers who are killed by their own weapons. AS: Do we have stats though by any chance, and if we don't I understand, but do we have stats at all on people who have concealed weapons permits who wind up having their weapons taken away and used against them. CPR: I don't have that statistic. CC: I haven't seen any and I think partly because there have been so few incidents where concealed weapons permit holders actually used a weapon. Mostly they have been successes. AS: Let's go to the phones. I know Ron has been holding from Sebastopol for awhile and I want to get to you right now. Ron, good morning, you're on the Alan Stock Show on KSRO. Ron: Good morning Alan. Good morning gentleman. It looks like we've got another gorgeous day in God's county here. We're really blessed. Chief Rooney, I'd like to ask you a question if possible. Maybe you could answer it. Today we've got three types of people in this state. Law abiding citizens, police officers and violent criminals. The LA riots really graphically illustrated what the police department does when a real problem arises. What did LA police department do? They withdrew their police officers and police cars from the street and took them to the nearest fortified police station and they said to the people of the city that they were sworn to protect, so sorry, hey we're sorry, you're on your own. P.S. Don't phone 911, you know. In this country right now 80% of the violent shootings whatever is done in a car. The people in this area had seen a situation where violent criminals have come to doors, kicked in the doors, raped, robbed and murdered people, often young children and older adults. They make a report and the cop shows up after the fact. In some areas, from Santa Rosa to Bodega Bay there is one police officer at night. You have over 50,000 people out here. If something happens, you're at the mercy of the violent criminal. This is not right. The police department is feathering their nest. They're making a bigger and bigger kingdom. The fact of the matter is, the people are the law, not the police department. The people are the law. AS: Do you have a question for the Chief? Ron: I have a question to the Chief, mainly being with concealed weapons, why are you afraid of the citizenry. These are the people that pay your salary. CPR: I agree with you. Ron: We're talking about law abiding citizens. People that made this country. The people that work for this country, pay their taxes and make things happen. The police department is not going to change the policy. CPR: Ron, first of all, law enforcement in this county and nationwide is not out to undermine or prevent the citizens from protecting themselves and their homes. Ron: I realize that. CPR: That's not what you just said. Ron: I realize, hey, I'm an ex-police officer. I know what's going on. CPR: If you know what's going on, then.... Ron: I know that there is political energies that chiefs have to bow to. CPR: Ron, do you own a weapon. Ron: Yes, I do. Here's the question. I applied for permits for concealed weapon for business. I'm an ex-police officer. I have presidential clearance and I was denied. That's wrong. There were 600 permits at the beginning of Idhe's term and there are 200 now. CPR: Ron are you able to protect your home right now. Ron: Am I able, I'm asking you a question, don't ask me a question. Can you answer my original question. Your asking me a question on a question. CPR: What I'm trying to explain to you is is that right now citizens in California are able, in fact, the sales of handguns are about 700 a day. Ron: There must be a reason. People don't buy guns for no reason. CPR: And law enforcement is not against that. We are not against or prohibiting people from protecting their loved ones, their homes, so I'm not sure where you're coming from. Ron: I'm coming from the fact that of the matter being as a person I go to jail if I have a weapon on me and something happens. I know personally of a situation where a man had a robber put a knife to his throat and his wife's throat. He was robbed. He ended up getting away from the guy and shooting the individual that stabbed his wife. He went to jail. Look what happened in LA with Rodney King thing. Rodney King is a millionaire and the cops there are in jail. I think that's backwards. AS: Ron, I thank you for your call this morning. I do thank you. What Ron is saying is that sense of frustration, Chief, is that again law abiding citizens are being asked to not carry concealed weapons for the most part while we walk down the streets knowing that some bad guys are going to have those concealed weapons on them and can turn it on us at any moment. We have very little to know wherewithal to be able to defend ourselves without carrying a weapon around like that. CPR: There are some other alternatives to that and I understand that emotion. There are other alternatives. Right now, there are more and more devices on the market that are very, very effective in self defense. CC: That's why the Sheriff's Department ended up having to shoot someone to death recently. I don't blame them for having done so. The guy did not respond to pepper spray and he was coming at them with a club. The problem is..... AS: You're talking about actually in Santa Rosa, the police.... CC: It was in Windsor I believe. It was a reminder that pepper spray. I carry pepper spray with me now. Pepper spray is a giant improvement over tear gas. The problem is that there are some situations that it will not be effective in. AS: Chief Rooney. CPR: Well, Mr. Cramer, first of all that incident was in Santa Rosa. It was a very tragic incident. AS: It was in the police station as a matter of fact. It was in the police station. CPR: But there are a lot more factors to that and obviously that case is under investigation and is currently be adjudicated and um, but there are a lot more factors to it that just what you have described. AS: You're listening to Police Chief Rooney from Rohnert Park and also author Clayton Cramer debating the issue of concealed weapons permits broadcasting live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. 7950 Redwood Drive. Come on down and say Hi to Kevin. He's here to talk to you. I'm Alan Stock. AS: Radio Time 9:56. I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. Good to have you aboard this morning. I'm talking with Chief Pat Rooney from Rohnert Park and Clayton Cramer, author, talking about concealed weapons issues. Let's go to Sebastopol. Eric, good morning. You're on the Alan Stock Show, KSRO. Eric: Alan, Eric from Sebastopol. AS: Eric, how are you? Eric: I'm good thanks. You know, this whole concept that more guns is somehow going to make the public safer is just ludicrous on it's face. The orientation of this Ron that called from Sebastopol earlier about the people are the law, that sentiment is exactly what makes this legislation so dangerous. The idea that the discretion is going to be taken away from local police chiefs and elected sheriffs to make judgements about the ability from their own community about how many guns ought to be carried around in concealed status by citizens is really an overbearing position from Sacramento that is inconsistent with local control. AS: Eric, let me just...we're not going to get into all of this. The chief gave me the California Police Chief's Association position paper on a variety of issues and I'm not going to talk about them all because we're not talking about them all this morning, but on the particular one here, number 6, labeled concealed weapons which is what we're discussing this morning, Eric: Right. AS: Their position is the issuance and position of a permit to carry a concealed weapon is and should be a privilege that is granted to few persons and under circumstances where protection with a lethal weapon is justifiably necessary. One walking down the street, one in any other social setting does not have the opportunity to know if someone else is around who is thinking about doing them harm or carrying a concealed weapon themselves and if a law abiding citizen was possessing, legally possessing a concealed weapon, they might have the opportunity to defend themselves and/or those around them. But without that weapon, they are inadequate, they are impotent and more than likely will end up dead. Eric: Well, in our community, in the county of Sonoma, you know there are only a handful of situations that one could point to where somebody has been assaulted and shot by some criminal carrying a weapon. So, the scenario of having an increase, a large increased number of people running around with concealed weapons to me suggests that you're going to have a high likelihood for people that are agitated getting into shootouts on the streets with bullets going in all directions and innocent citizens...... AS: Eric, we'll talk about that in a few minutes. We're coming up against the clock. More about the concealed weapons issue with Chief Pat Rooney and Clayton Cramer right after the news. AS: KSRO TalkRadio Time 10:06. I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. Good to have you aboard this morning and I thank you for joining me as we broadcast live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. 7950 Redwood Drive as a matter of fact. My special guests this morning are Police Chief Patrick Rooney from the great city of Rohnert Park and author Clayton Cramer. Clayton has been on my show a number of times talking about his books and about the issue of gun control and the history as a matter of fact of gun control. We may do a show on that in the future. This morning though we are talking about concealed weapons in particular and we are focusing a little bit on the legislation that's pending in the California State Senate which would allow if the governor would sign it and if it's passed as it has done in the Assembly would allow for law abiding citizens to seek out and to gain a permit to carry around a concealed weapon. Some people contend it would help defend themselves in society; others say it would put too many weapons on the streets and increase crime in and of itself. I want to get back to the phones. I do want to head over to Wanda who's been holding for awhile from Rohnert Park. Good morning Wanda. You're on the Alan Stock show. Wanda: Good morning Alan. Yes, I would just like to paint just a quick scenario for Chief Rooney mainly because I grew up in Los Angeles where the average response time, at the time, this was in the early 80's, of LAPD was 45 minutes. Let me preface my remarks by saying I am not here to bash the police. I believe the police do an excellent overall job. Just because you have a few police that don't do their job does not indict the whole law enforcement community. AS: I would agree. Wanda: Thank you, but I just want to paint a scenario of women mainly dealing coming home from work. Nurses, I've had friends that have gotten out of work at 12:00 or 1:00 in the morning had to walk to their car in a parking structure in Los Angeles were unescorted because they were getting off their shift and had no one to go with and are potentially in a lethal situation and given the fact that while I lived there were no outstanding permits that I'm aware of. I knew no one who received a concealed weapons permit for their protection and to expect a policeman to be with these women is totally unrealistic and I really feel that for women being able to apply for a concealed weapons permits, to be able to carry concealed makes the equality between the sexes a reality. If a man approaches a woman in a parking structure and she pulls out a firearm, perhaps just the presence of seeing that gun may cause him to go for an easier prey. AS: May deter him to walk away. I was also, when I first starting coming to Montana Hawk Firing Range it amazed me to really see the number of women coming here and participating in firearms safety training. I was amazed to see that. But Chief Rooney how would you respond to Wanda from Rohnert Park talking about the issue of women feeling at risk in dark structures at nighttime, leaving the area, not being able to have police or anyone else escort them out. They are vulnerable to the prey of these evil minds. CPR: Again, Alan, I think it's important to note that a lot of that deals with preventative measures, for instance well lighted parking lots. There are techniques because even if in her case she had a concealed weapons permit that is not going to assure safety. But going out to the parking lot in groups will and there are other nonlethal devices out there that do not require the extensive training and recertification that a handgun does. For instance, your Mace. There are devices out there that increase the potential. I share as much as I can with her dilemma having five daughter and a wife. My wife works shift work. She walks out to a parking lot late at night. So you know, three of my five daughters have taken self defense courses. We have equipped them with OC Mace when it became legal and you know, there are things you can do. Now, getting back to this bill, the point is that this bill is so loosely constructed that it doesn't offset. In other words, it is just going to cause more problems. AS: What could we do, what could be done with that bill to amend it. That always occurs in the legislative process to amend it that would satisfy you and turn you around and have you become a supporter of that bill? CPR: Speaking for myself, the concerns that I have with the bill again are the training. And Mr. Cramer, I really appreciate his comments on that because he and I do agree on that. The bill has inadequate training and recertification clauses in there. I think there are places within communities they should have the option to post no firearms. I think churches. I think certainly bars. Some of these, perhaps even your radio station may want to have the right to post no firearms inside here. CC: And most states have made explicit provisions that says that you can do that and I see nothing in this bill that would prevent any private employer from going ahead and imposing such a requirement. I know that my current employer has such a requirement. It says, mostly because they're a Texas company, it says that you will not have firearms of any sort on the premesis. CPR: And I have a sign here, Mr. Cramer, from Texas and this is one of the hottest selling signs right now in Texas and people are posting this. CC: Some businesses are and some are not. Some banks have even decided not to. CPR: This notice says no guns allowed on this premise by order of the management. CC: If a private firm wants to do that, that's their business. CPR: But, Alan, this bill is not real clear on that. AS: So in other words, if I'm hearing you clear, Police Chief Rooney, if the particular legislation is amended to allow for the more stringent training, which I by the way happen to agree with you, it ought to be included, they ought to amend this particular bill. Clayton Cramer suggested that he would agree with that particular provision. If that occurs and they make the corrections and additions that you would like to see, would you then sign on board as a supporter. CPR: There are other considerations to, Alan. I can't carte blanche either speak for Pat Rooney at this time, or California Chiefs or even Sonoma County Chiefs. But Mr. Cramer also shared his concern about record acquisition for mentally ill people. That is not definitive in this particular bill and it concerns him as it does me. CC: You can get an awful lot more done saying what can we do to improve this bill rather than trying to stop it and one of the problems is in the Assembly, police chiefs were very reluctant to give up their power, sheriffs were reluctant to give up their campaign fund re-election system which is what in many counties this has been used as and so they opposed it. AS: What we're going to do is take a quick breather. When we come on back, we're going to be talking with our own Billy John Quinto. Billy G and right after that, Jeff from Windsor. If you'd like to join on in this morning, I've got a line open for you. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 10:16. I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. My pleasure this morning to be talking to two gentleman who are very passionate about the issue of concealed weapons. The Police Chief of Rohnert Park, Patrick Rooney and Clayton Cramer, author of a variety of books dealing with the issue of the right to bear arms. Speaking about of sporting and the right to bear arms, let's talk with Billy G or Billy John Quinto, KSRO's own Redwood outdoor reporter. How ya doin' Billy? Billy G: I've been listening to your program and it's great that your having the two gentleman on there. I have very strong feelings about this, about concealed weapons. And, number one, it's going to sell a lot of guns and it's going to make the gun makers happy and it's going to make the politicians happy that passed the legislation because they've been lobbied for so many years to get this thing done. But I'll tell you this, you put guns into the hands of "normal people", people that don't have felonies, people that don't have convictions on their record. You are going to open up the biggest, I can't even describe it. People are not gonna know who's gonna have guns on 'em. CC: We've tried the experiment in a number of states now and I should tell you that in 1989 when I first started gathering data on Florida and then some of the other states that have made similar laws, my first reaction was, this can't work. I believe that permits can be made easier to get than they were here in California but I thought that the laws being passed were similar to AB638 were just too extreme and yet what happened. In 1987 the murder rate in Florida was 11.4 per 100,000. That was the year the new law took affect. By 1994, it had fallen to 8.3 per 100,000. Georgia had a similar experience and fell from 12.7 per 100,000 when the law took effect in 1989 to 10.0. Billy G: OK, let me ask you this, what constitutes a life threatening experience. What does the guy, the normal average day Joe on the street carrying a concealed weapon, what is in his mind constitute my life is being threatened, I'm going to pull a gun..... AS: Let me give you an example that was brought up by Eric as a matter of fact, and that was in Texas where they have liberalized concealed weapons laws, there was a traffic accident that occurred. One man basically got out of the car and started beating the hell out of the other man and severely so, so the man being beaten upon would have wound up either in jail or dead or maimed or disfigured somehow. The man who was being beat upon had a permit to legally carry a weapon. A .40 caliber pistol was what he was carrying and in order to defend himself he took the gun out and he shot and he killed the attacker. Now, that made the news all over the place and I've got the duplicate of the incident right in front of me from the newspaper from the Press Enterprise out of California and in fact, the Grand Jury in Texas refused to indict the man who shot and killed the man who was attacking him. There is an example of a real, very simple traffic problem that wound up meeting the man to defend his own life. And he had something there that could speak to that affect. Without that, that man today may be in the hospital or maimed or in a coma or dead. Billy G: One last comment, then I'll let other people get on there. How about the police. Anytime they have to draw their gun, anytime they draw their gun they have to write a report on it and if there's a shooting incident they are under a microscope to find out what happened. CC: And that's largely what happened in these states is that as this incident that was taken to the Grand Jury showed, the reaction of the police was, we're going to put this guy under a microscope and make sure he did the right thing. Billy G: Yeah, and I'll tell you, you put guns in hundreds of thousands of people's hands and you're going to have nothing but trouble. CC: We've tried the experiment in other states and we have not had the problems that everyone expected. CPR: Let me speak to the experiments in the other states, Alan. Because Mr. Cramer threw out some statistics and I appreciate that. First of all, I apologize to the audience for playing this statistical game because they can be modified and you really have to scrutinize them. But the statistics that Mr. Cramer gave didn't explain that there was an increase in firearm related homicides. CC: You don't mean murders though. CPR: I'm talking homicides, now. Bear with me on this. In 1988, 1989 and 1990. Now after 1990 and this is the state of Florida which is still being used as the model here. After that Florida did something unique. They thought, Woooh, something's going on here. Let's start a registration period. Let's start doing some cursory backgrounds. But even then, the firearm involved homicide rate continued to increase in the state of Florida until 1994 and I don't have 1995. CC: But not the murder rate. CPR: We're talking firearm involved homicides. CC: Homicide is not murder though. Homicide includes justifiable homicides as well. This is one of the problems with the National Center for Health Statistics. CPR: Overall, overall violent crime in the state of Florida rose by 26% during the period of time since the implementation of the Shall Issue. Now, if we're to take your premise that carrying concealed weapons is going to create peace then how do explain what's happened in Florida. CC: Very simply. In 1988 Florida changed the method that it uses for gathering and totaling those statistics. This has been something that has been widely publicized in the literature on the subject.... CPR: Again, Mr. Cramer, we're back to statistics and I'm just using the FBI's uniform crime report which says Florida since 1987 through 1994 is the most violent state in the nation and we have twice their population. CC: In fact, Florida had a very violent problem for a very long time. CPR: They still do. Billy G: Just think about this guys, how many people to you know that are law abiding that you would not like to see a concealed weapon. Think about that. I'm going to jump off the phone. AS: Alright Billy. Billy John Quinto from KSRO. You know, what you two gentleman are doing is talking about apples and oranges because the issue of violence in homicides by firearms does not necessarily, Chief Rooney, indicate that these were murders that we're talking about two separate things here. We're talking about one, individuals using guns in a homicide which may be defensible including peace officers by the way, as opposed to anyone using a weapon for a murder which murders.... CPR: And I appreciate that Alan, and that's why scrutiny of statistics is very important. But, I'll go back to the fact I just made. Let's not look at firearm involved homicides or murder or anything like that. If the premise is that more people carrying guns is going to create a more peaceful state then Florida should not be used as an example. AS: We're going to come on back with more thoughts on concealed weapons and your calls starting off with Jeff in Windsor, then Jenny in Sebastopol, then Kevin in Rohnert Park. You can join in at 270- 1350 and 1-800-570-TALK. I'm broadcasting live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 10:28 and I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. Broadcasting live this morning from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati, 7950 Redwood Drive. Talking about concealed weapons. Clayton Cramer, Patrick Rooney joining me this morning. Let's go to Jeff in Windsor. Jeff, good morning, you're on the Alan Stock Show on KSRO Jeff: Good morning and God bless America. Hey, ya know. I just want to tell everyone to go out there and vote. AS: You got that one. Jeff: Yes, yes, I'm kind of excited cause I can complain all I want. You guys can complain up there all you want without the police chief throwing you in jail and there's a lot of countries you can't do that. But anyway, I just wanted to get a reaction. I just got done...I took my shotgun and I marched around the neighborhood a couple of times, you know, just to exercise my freedom of bearing arms and I just wanted to know you comments on that. AS: Alright, Chief Rooney....ah...he marched around his neighborhood with a....why did you do that.... Jeff: Who me? Yeah, why did you do that? Just to exercise my right and just to see you know where we stand with this freedom to bear arms. CC: I hope it wasn't loaded because if it was you were breaking the law. CPR: It depends, where to do you live at? Jeff: I live in Windsor. CPR: You live in Windsor. Is it unincorporated or the incorporated part. Jeff: Well, is residential. AS: And, we know of course Jeff, that it was unloaded. Jeff: Yes, well, no I just wanted to know...so it's illegal to carry a loaded weapon around. CC: In cities it is. AS: Within the city limits and I thank you for your call this morning. We'll come back to more of your calls right after CNN Headline news. This is 1350 KSRO Santa Rosa. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 10:33 and I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. My pleasure this morning to be broadcasting live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati, 7950 Redwood Drive. You can take Highway 116 to the first exit, or the first right turn westbound right off of 116 and we are right there at Montana Hawk Firing Range, 7950 Redwood Drive. Come on by and say hello. Kevin, Ray and the entire gang are here. Right next door, the Scott McDougal folks, and by the way they do training for concealed weapons permits when the permits are granted by police chiefs and sheriffs from Sonoma County. Good to have you aboard this morning. Lines are open at 270-1350 and 1-800-570- TALK. My pleasure to be hosting Patrick Rooney, he is the Police Chief of Rohnert Park. And also with me this morning is Clayton Cramer. He is an author of a variety of books on gun control and the right to bear arms. And I thank you gentleman both for being with me this morning. Let's go over to Jerry in Sebastopol. Jerry, good morning, you're on the Alan Stock Show on KSRO. Jerry: Good morning. AS: Good morning, Jerry. Jerry: A little bit of comment on the gun control thing. Number one, I've always been around guns, I've always had guns, primarily rifles. Haven't considered short guns, pistols, until everybody else seemed to be having them and a lot of violence is occurring. Now, it appears to me that handguns should be available to the normal population of the country side. The people who should be giving the instruction should be the police, the local police. AS: Well, in this case here with the folks at Scott/McDougal, these are ex-police officers so we're talking about people involved in the law enforcement community. So, you're right there on target. Jerry: But he's retired. He's not active. AS: Well, I'll tell you something..... Jerry: The more active the local police become the better off we are. AS: Jerry, he is active in keeping up on information that is coming out as any police officer is. I only say that because...... Jerry: He's not the guy people see on the street. AS: He is the guy the police officers come to for their own training at times, so we're talking about someone who's well qualified. Jerry: That's great, that's great. I still think the local police should be involved in the training. For God's sake don't turn it over to the schools. That's the wrong place to have kids trained in guns. You can have rifle clubs, you can have shooting clubs, that kind of thing, but don't rely on schools to train your kids to handle guns. AS: OK, first of all, I would agree with you that they shouldn't train people in guns at schools, but I am a big supporter of the NRA's quest to make sure that children are trained in firearm safety from a very early age. If we can train kids how to put a condom on a cucumber, we can certainly go ahead and make sure they stay away from loaded weapons when they find them. Jerry: But, it still should not be done within the confines of the school. It should be done with the local policeman. Get that contact with the kids. CC: Do you have some point to make about the issue of concealed weapons? Jerry: With which weapons. CC: Well, what we're discussing is AB638, a bill to liberalize the issuance of concealed weapons permits. Jerry: Well, OK, here's were I'm coming from. Number one, I'm 65, 64-years-old. I've never seen a piece of legislation yet that solved the problem. It normally made it worse because the people who write the legislation are not very wise. Number two, I think that everyone who is of a legal citizenship, what ever that may be, should have access if he wishes to a handgun and a long gun. We have a system now that we can track the people with through the DMV. It's a big record and you can't cash a check without..... AS: Jerry, I'm only interrupting because we're talking this morning about concealed weapons. I understand you're talking about the right to bear arms and there's no one here in this room..... Jerry: Concealed weapons should be allowed, yes. AS: They should be allowed by people who are law abiding citizens and we should take the right away from the police chiefs.... Jerry: Because the bad guys are out numbering us. AS: The bad guys are outnumbering us. Police Chief Rooney, you want to respond to Jerry. CPR: Well, first of all, people have a right to buy handguns to the degree that this store such as this are selling. AS: No, his thought about concealed weapons, though that people ought to be allowed to carry them out of their own sense of self protection. CPR: And under certain circumstances, I think most police chiefs will agree with that, but this particular bill, and that's what we're discussing is this particular bill, Alan, just does not fit that bill. Jerry: Then why in the world don't you guys get together and write a bill that you're satisfied with. CPR: And Mr. Cramer and I were just discussing that and that's a solution. CC: One of the problems is that police chiefs throughout the state, at least in the urban areas where there is the most need to be able to carry a concealed weapon, make permits effectively impossible to get. The city of Los Angeles for almost 20 years didn't issue a concealed weapon permit. In a city of 3.5 million people there wasn't a single person who apparently had a legitimate reason. One of the things that upsets me is that in the places were permits are easy to get out in many of the rural counties where there is no significant violent crime, you know, great, in the places you don't really need a permit is about the only places you can get one. For practical purposes, unless you are defending a substantial amount of wealth, that is you're regularly transporting a really incredible amount of money around, you can't get a carry permit in this county. AS: Jerry, I thank you for your call this morning. I certainly do appreciate it. Chief, let me direct a question to you if I may, and that is the issue, as Clayton brought up, there are large counties and large area with many people in them where police chiefs and sheriffs have refused for many years to issue concealed weapons permits with very, very rare exceptions. Given that fact and given the level of frustration that most people have regarding violence in our society, which has increased significantly, what we are doing as some people believe is making criminals out of people who ordinary would be law abiding citizens. These people are saying the police chiefs of this county, or these cities and the sheriffs are not going to allow these permits. I've got to protect myself. I know it's wrong. I feel bad about doing it. But, I've also got to protect my life and those around me and I'm going to carry one around just to make sure and I'll take whatever rap comes down the road. And we see that's creating criminals. CPR: Well, Alan, first of all, you indicated that was a fact that police chiefs are not considering this. I don't know that. Certainly apparently at this particular table there is that perception. Most police chiefs and sheriffs if a person comes in under a current bill and is able to explain, and it has nothing to do with money as certainly that's one of the provisions and one of the examples is that if your transporting great deals of money and so on and so forth but we also look for expressed need. AS: That's were we're differing right here. This point right here. The need of transporting large amounts of money, no one disagrees with. The need of transporting large amounts of jewelry. CPR: Self defense is a need too. And that is something that police chiefs and sheriffs look at. AS: I've talked to Sal Rosano on my program before from Santa Rosa, he is loath to hand out concealed weapons permits for almost any reason whatsoever. And, he's up front about that and again I support Sal in a lot of things he does but he and I happen to disagree in this particular area. He won't hand them out. What do you say to people who say, Police Chief Rooney, I don't have large amounts of money that I transport, I don't even have lots amounts of jewelry. But, Chief, I'm afraid for my life, I'd like a weapon. Would you issue one to me, I'm a law abiding citizen, never been arrested. Don't do drugs. Will you give it to me. CPR: I will want to know the specific need. What fear is prompting this and then I, as a police chief working with law enforcement in this community, will try to address that issue. CC: So, for example, a person who is out on a walk suddenly is threatened with death by an apparent robbery attempt, that wouldn't be an adequate reason. CPR: What was that? CC: Let me tell you about what happened in 1989..... CPR: Now, are we going to get into personal things, Mr. Cramer, cause that was one of the formats we discussed. AS: That was one of the ground rules we used not to discuss anything personal. We're going to take a break. When we come on back we're going to continue with Clayton Cramer and Police Chief Rooney talking about concealed weapons. I've got Kevin from Rohnert Park coming up next. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 10:45 and I'm Alan Stock and a good morning to you. Broadcasting live this morning from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati, 7950 Redwood Drive. By the way, these folks will not only sell you the weapon, but they will also train you so you know what you're doing and I believe people ought to be trained when they do buy weapons but on the other hand, weapons ought to be available for law abiding citizens under almost any circumstance. The interesting point that's come out of the discussion this morning is, and gentlemen you may correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I believe that we've come to an agreement that concealed weapons permits ought to be allowed on a more liberal basis but that the law that is pending in the State Senate right now has got to be modified to address some areas of concern. One of course, is more concentrated training of one who would seek to possess a concealed weapons permit and the possibility of better opportunity to check backgrounds of people for mental histories, as well as for aberrant legal histories as well. Can I just ask you if we agree on those points at this point. CPR: Certainly from the chiefs perspective, we're looking for that. CC: If in fact the objective is to provide some sort of objective criteria for issuance of permits, that would be an improvement over the current system which lends itself to abuse, even if it is not currently being abused here. AS: Alright, let's go to Kevin in Rohnert Park. Kevin, good morning. You're on the Alan Stock show on KSRO. Kevin: Good morning, Alan. First off, let me thank both Clayton Cramer and the chief for making themselves available for the public to ask or give their opinions. Secondly, I'd like to say I support legislation that would make it a little easier for the public, but I do have concerns about the training. That would be foremost in my mind to make sure the public has adequate training. Also, if it does take longer to check backgrounds, that would be fine. My first question is to the Chief..... AS: Excuse me, let me interrupt. I would agree with you by the way that even if it took more than the 15 days, if we had to modify say to 25 or 30 days, I wouldn't care. CC: Ninety days would be fine with me if that's what was actually required and we were able to get permits issued. AS: There you go. Go ahead Kevin. Kevin: Do you have the numbers of issued permits from Rohnert Park. CPR: Do I have what? AS: How many concealed weapon permits have you issued in Rohnert Park is the question. CPR: I believe I have eight. AS: Eight, eight is the answer. Kevin: OK, so how many people live in Rohnert Park. CPR: About 39,100. Kevin: OK, so that only about 1 in 2000, 1 in about 2000 or so. OK, so why are there not more permits. CPR: To be honest with you, I haven't had that many inquiries. I just haven't. Kevin: OK...when you have inquires, are you more apt to allow or disallow the permit. CPR: I'm more apt to disallow based on the lack of what I perceive and in my discretion an expressed need to have one. AS: Kevin, quick follow-up. Kevin: OK, the other question was if it was allowed, if there was legislation passed and we had more training in the legislation and we had maybe a longer waiting period, would it be made easier for people to, so it would be made easier for people to come in and actually get a permit. I could just walk in the police department, fill out an application, wait my period and there would be no...other than barring my felonies or something like that, there would be no way to deny me. CPR: Yes, the process would work like this. You would come in and make an application. We would be processing the form to the Department of Justice. Now the way this bill is written is as soon as within 15 days of the Department of Justice giving you clearance on their investigation which is only going to be looking at the records files for the state, then we would have 15 days to do whatever we needed to do and then there's a shall issue with the exception if we come up within three areas, we could deny the permit. Kevin: What are those three areas. CPR: They have to do primarily with prior felony convictions, they have to do with essentially a court stating that your mental history was such that you are a danger to yourself or others. They have to do with residency and they also have to do with..... Kevin: What do they have to do with residency. CPR: Well, you're not going to be issuing...you're going to want to get issued a concealed weapons permit in the jurisdiction that you live. But the other criteria has to do with training. Kevin: Gottcha....well, I definitely support a better training issue where people have.....I know currently in Sonoma you have to go through about 8 hours with actual qualification with a firearm.... CC: It's a very useful course, even if you do not apply for a concealed weapons permit. It is a useful course to go through. AS: Kevin, I appreciate your call this morning and I do thank you very much. We're going to get on over to Jana in Cotati. Jana, you're on the Alan Stock Show on KSRO. Jana: Good morning, Alan. AS: Good morning, Jana. Jana: You're right around the corner from me. AS: I know. Jana: OK, I'm going to be real brief. I have two brief points. First of all, I've had all forms of guns my whole life. I lived on a ranch in the Mexican mountains and the only time I brought out a gun in all those years was just once to kill a rattlesnake. AS: Alright. A lot of rattlesnakes on the streets of America, I might add. Jana: Alright. I enjoy target practice but a few years ago my 25-year-old brother was killed by an illegal handgun. I no longer handle guns but I totally support the freedom of bearing arms. AS: I appreciate you call this morning and I do thank you for it. And, I want to get over to Hank, now in Santa Rosa. Good morning, Hank, you're on the Alan Stock Show at KSRO. Hank: Good morning, Alan. AS: Good morning, Hank. Hank: I want to be brief. I just want to say that the best argument that I know against general and indiscriminate licensing of handguns is that egocentric guy you had on three or four calls ago walking around with a shotgun showing his right. This is a danger. This macho bravado stuff. I've got a gun personality, look out. This is the way people get shot. This is something that all the training in the world will not cover up. CC: And, you know, that's exactly the sort of person that is most likely to violate the law carrying a concealed weapon. AS: I have also worked around people before that were certified drug addicts and I have seen these people come in and show their fellow drug addicts weapons proud. They're carrying these great big weapons, they think they're whipping their penises out and showing them around as if it's a big weapon. I understand that that's where they're coming from. I understand exactly. These are the people who are the bad guys that we want to be able to isolate and turn into society into prisons, but the law abiding citizens some of us contend ought to have a right to protect themselves. And I thank you for your call this morning. Hank: I agree with that but I don't know how you weed them out. AS: Well, that's why Police Chief Rooney is here this morning and Clayton Cramer, trying to help devise a way that we can all agree that there may be someway down the road to be able to implement legislation. Hank: One question, Alan. What are the chances of the passage of this law. AS: The way it sits right now, not very good and the Governor has already stated that if in fact it passes the State Senate, he will veto it. So, it's got to be amended or it will never become law. We all agree to that. I thank you for your call. Be back in just a minute. I'm Alan Stock. AS: KSRO TalkRadio time 10:56. My pleasure this morning to have been talking to Clayton Cramer, author and Patrick Rooney, Rohnert Park Police Chief. And gentlemen I do thank you for both being with me this morning. I want to apologize to all of you who could not get on the air this morning. I want to get a final statement from each one of you, brief if you would be so kind. And, let us start out with..... CC: How brief? AS: About 45 seconds. Clayton, go ahead. CC: State after state have adopted concealed weapons permit laws that greatly reduce or in many cases eliminate discretion of local police chiefs or sheriffs in the issuance of permits. The experience of these states with murder rates suggest that at worst it does nothing, it makes no difference. In a few cases, murder rates have significantly fallen after adoption of these laws. Whatever changes might be required to make AB638 a little more acceptable, we're not the ones being inflexible about this. These things...there is no other license that I can think of that has this kind of discretionary power given to a local official. AS: Thank you very much, Clayton Cramer. Police Chief Rooney from Rohnert Park. CPR: The states that Mr. Cramer is talking about again, we can play statistical games. The fact of the matter is the one that Mr. Cramer uses and the various studies use is Florida and Florida based on its population is the most violent state in the nation, has been since the implementation of that bill of their shall carry and I would just encourage the listeners to consider the things we have talked about and to join the County Police Chiefs. Altogether we have over 200 years of experience. We have to deal with violence on a daily basis and we are not supportive of this particular bill. AS: But you are with some modifications. CPR: We understand there will be modifications in the future. But, this is not the bill. AS: Alright, but if this bill was modified you would support it as we talked about earlier. CPR: I would have to see what those modifications are going to be and I would like the opportunity to work on it. AS: I would agree with you both that modifications need to be made. I predict that modifications either will be made or the bill will go down to defeat and if it goes down to defeat, it will rise up again next year like a Phoenix saying, I am back but in a better form that we can all support. And, I think that's where we're headed. We've been broadcasting live from Montana Hawk Firing Range in Cotati. 7950 Redwood Drive.